What Could Have Been Different: Archie Sonic

[Mike Arcade]

This was an old topic I created back in my old forum days a few years back, so I thought it was time to bring it back. In here we'll discuss the unused concepts that Archie Sonic has developed but never went through with over the years, that include Lost Hedgehog Tales and everything from Penders and Bollers Era. I'll provide links down below, if anyone can find anything I missed out on please let me know, on that note let's look over what could have been...

Ken Penders and Karl Bollers:
http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Abandoned_and_Unused_Concepts
http://www.kenpenders.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=122
http://archive.today/bacT

Ian Flynn:
http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Ian_Flynn's_Unused_Concepts
http://bumbleking.com/fandom/lost-hedgehog-tales/

NOTE: This topic got merged with an older one, saves up clutter after all. XP

[DaddlerTheDalek]

What if topics are always interesting.

[Mike Arcade]

Thanks Daddler, thought it would be nice to have everyone look over and see what everyone thinks about the plans these writers had, granted I've done this topic before about 2 years ago and had my own opinons on them, granted that was before anything from Lost Hedgehog Tales came out but still thoughts can change so I figured why not, and to see what some of our members who haven't seen this topic before think about them as well.

[Mike Arcade]

And here we are, the 2nd Topic of What Could Have Been Different.

For those who don't know, we here ask a question where things went in different direction, a certain change of events and try our best to come up with an answer that would be the end result of the question, think of this as our own fun What If topic, once we answer the question at hand the next person comes up with another question and keep on going from there.

With Archie Sonic there are an multitude of what could have been different questions, so let's start with an event that everyone whose read the comic knows about.

What if The Slap of Archie Sonic #134 never happened?

[Ishapar]

So why is it that when a couple finally get married, that usually ends the story?  I never understood it: is entertainment trying to tell us that once we marry, we no longer will have adventures or future conflicts?

[Ishapar]

On 12/3/2016 at 9:35 PM, TheRedAuthar said:

On the contrary.  But that would be the close on one chapter of life and the beginning of another.  The story would have to change to the new scenario, thus ending the original run.  

I mean, just because a game ends doesn't mean it can't have a sequel, but the current adventure is still over.  

 

Imagine if you will Sonic Volume 1 ends so Sonic Volume 2 can begin.  Other comic companies have done this for years.  

Good point.

But I still don't see how that would exactly change the whole story.  It maybe a new chapter, but life still goes on whether a couple marries or not.  I guess most writers are working with the concept that most marriages take place during a time of peace outside of conflict (no pulling the Turner/Swann trick in POTC 3).

I guess I won't fully understand that concept unless it does happen to me...gulp....

[Ishapar]

Interesting view.

When growing up, however, some changes will happen that can still change the character's path.  A free loafer may end up settling down: it doesn't mean they lost their sense of adventure.  A true adventurer will find his own adventure (like I do) and will keep life around him always interesting.  Still, life can throw curve balls where you end up doing things you never expected or thought you could never do as you thought doing so would change everything about you.  That is something I have been learning lately: God changes things in a man's life, but He still retains things of that man's persona and character that doesn't go away.  I have been stuck at a lumber mill in the middle of the country for nearly 3 years, and during that time, I had to learn many things that I thought would change who I was.  Yes, some change happened, but at the end, I was still me.  In fact, some of those experiences and changes brought more of the real me out.  I think the same thing happens to any character when dealing with change: we could allow it to totally change and control us, but usually the change doesn't necessarily destroy what we were; a lot of times, that change can help us mature into a more whole being while refining aspects of our persona.  With Sonic and Sal, I could see the same thing happening: both having to give up things but realizing later that the change has actually matured both of them and their personas are still the same as it was in the past.  I hope that makes sense.

[TheRedStranger]

I personally think that Sonic and Sally doing the opposite and having Sonic tentively say yes   would be a world-shaking plot idea that has vast potential. Having to compromise and mature is the hallmark of any relationship and eventually Sally would be pressed in situation to compromise and perhaps draw the character flaws in this issue beyond a widely considered  two-dimensional paroxysm. The seed of love must be tended and in the end will not look anything like its original form when it transforms and blossoms into a vibrant fruiting plant. This is a character development gold mine and can very richly pair with the more external, visceral,  and political conflicts at large. I really think the tit for tat that eventually leads to "goof steady" and how others react to this (like Sonic's other potential partners) would also create a lot of unique relational conflict.  Bottom line is that it much more interesting than him being some bizzare cold-hearted asexual alien like Sega of Japan wants him to be or someone that questionably flits about shallowly between partners. 

My only condition would be Sonic not becoming "King Sonic." That is not who he is and could stand to be. One it makes to no sense politically (he would be "Prince" Sonic like U.K. has a Prince Albert).  There would have to be something that breaks and bends mutually. Like one of the writers of Satam once  said, "there must be a cost." I say the cost is actually well worth it and I would love a more committed Sonsal story-arc for its narrative potential alone.

[Mike Arcade]

You know, from seeing how all of these responses I came to the conclusion that...I really would have liked to see Sonic and Sally getting hitched rather then having the slap. Maybe not getting married the exact issue, but instead of having Bunnie and Antoine getting married I would have rather had them get married instead. Maybe in the not exact same time frame as their wedding issue but still.

It does bring in a lot of shake ups and changes for them both, such as temptations from others, relationship issues, societal issues regarding everyone's reaction to it. Don't forget Amy Rose's reaction to their marriage, something I'd very much want to see as that would completely change her motivations and question her purpose overall. I don't think a Volume Change needs to be done however, if they had one they should done so after issue 50 or at the start of this Post Reboot we have. Yes there would be no King Sonic as it makes no sense whatsoever, I mean there are no real stories out there as far as I know tackling the challenges of young marriage and that in turn can give both characters more room to develop into 3 dimensional characters. Perhaps with them together things could be a lot more stable overall, at least until Sally gets roboticized anyway. If that were to still happen, it would be much more heartbreaking and would be much more of an emotional punch. But I'd doubt that would happen as by that point if they were married I'd say Sonic would be much more mature then the one we ended up with. Overall I'd say it could have been great, sadly Sega and now Ian Flynn think differently of that now.

But let's not let that get us down, and in turn I got a question doing the opposite for a couple that are still canon as a matter of fact, you can thank Stranger for this one.

What if Bunnie and Antoine did not get together, why so, and who would they possibly date instead?

[Akessel92]

I feel honestly sally would abdicate her position as being a monarch if she was married to sonic tbh. 

Also, Bunnie and Antoine I think they can still be lovers but none of the marriage as they're dynamic can be malleable but at the same time unbreakable. I mean have them go through every rollercoaster worth of struggles as a couple via commiting to each without matrimonial ceremony and such. Have them go through jealously and sadness as well. I didn't mind them being married but I do sometimes think the there isn't much being used with it or what have you.

[TheRedStranger]

2 hours ago, Akessel92 said:

mean have them go through every rollercoaster worth of struggles as a couple via commiting to each without matrimonial ceremony and such. Have them go through jealously and sadness as well. I didn't mind them being married but I do sometimes think the there isn't much being used with it or what have you.

Though I am not a fan of this pairing, I deeply agree with this approach to the idea aforementioned if one choose this route. Marrying them off was a huge narrative sacrifice of potential drama and interesting character growth. Marriage sealed the deal and deprived the readers of a believable progression and series of conflicts and narrative arcs that could have accompanied this rather contrived relationship.

 --

Personally I think Bunnie and Rotor go together like peanut butter and chocolate. Rotor has had the most intimate contact with her both physically and spiritually. He loves machinery; she is half machinery and feels unloveable. She is half was-machine and feels like her femininity is marred by such, yet Rotor is her personal mechanic and, let's be honest, probably could easily garner a geeky fasicantion for her cybernetic... assets...  It's potential for cultivating both intriguing text and subtext is way less contrived and fertile than the parrying we currently have.

[Wulfsbane]

What if Patch succeeded in his plan (marrying Sally)?

[Mike Arcade]

On 12/22/2016 at 1:41 AM, TheRedAuthar said:

What if Bunnie and Antoine did not get together, why so, and who would they possibly date instead?

I didn't come up with the question originally so hey it would be fun to answer this one.  

I'd say this could have been a good possibility, though it's up in the air on who they would end up with (although I do like Red's idea of who Bunnie would end up with) I think it's more interesting to delve into the consequence of them not together at all, but as just friends. For one Bunnie I think if she didn't end up with anyone for awhile would stick closer to her friends, she was suppose to start being better friends with Fiona originally so that could come into play, which if Fiona had a good friend in the Freedom Fighters like her she'd be much less likely to betray them for Scourge. She would however be still more self conscious with her bionics since having that surgery was necessary to save her life, it would be something she would still struggle with a bit longer. She could flirt with certain characters, but otherwise would end up settling down with someone. In fact perhaps she could lead the Substitute Freedom Fighters or lead younger and upcoming members. It would fit her overall as being a mentor to those that need some guidance, like Mina and Amy! 

Antoine however is a bit more complicated, he'd hang on to his crush on Sally overall longer then before, and wouldn't possibly shake out of his dork age until later on, though if I may say he was never as bad as his SatAM counterpart so it wouldn't be THAT bad. Eventually he'd grow up a bit and stand his ground, maybe there would be a hint between the two if they never got together but decide to remain as friends. With Antoine not being with anyone he'd be focused toward his service with the Kingdom, and perhaps give Geoffrey a run for his money, maybe he'd end up as the leader of the Secret Service? That alone would save Sonic and the Knothole Freedom Fighters a lot more trouble overall, Antoine might not even get switched with Patch if that's the case.

As for who they would end up with, honestly I'm gonna give a shrug on this one for both as I'm not really sure. For Bunnie, I could see maybe Mighty perhaps? I mean both are strong willed and the hearts of their own groups, in a way they complement each other personality wise, get them in a story together and who knows. As for Antoine well since he would usurp Geoffrey in leadership he might as well steal his woman Hershey!  
Because really it's Geoffrey, who cares about him? XP
Although maybe Barby as they did meet during Endgame, I mean I think she's almost as feisty as Bunnie but it's been awhile as Barby was never really shown all that much.

Overall I think that in this case separate and as friends they are much more of a force to be reckoned with.

11 hours ago, Wulfsbane said:

What if Patch succeeded in his plan (marrying Sally)?

 

Eventually he would get caught, there's no doubt in my mind about that, but in this case his plan would have succeeded with him sticking around for a lot longer.

For one due to his poisoning Max would for sure be dead, being quite tragic for everyone. Elias would have been poisoned so either he'd be dead too or too weak to take on the throne, if it's the latter it would take him awhile to get back to full strength and by then this whole saga I think would be over. Armand would also be dead, possibly for some time before Antoine eventually comes back. Sally would be in a rather unhappy marriage that she reluctantly went through as overall Patch would be rather unloving other then giving her sweet words and a few kisses. Honestly I think Sally would end up talking to someone about her problems with all of this, and due to complications with Bunnie regarding this subject may just turn to Sonic as at that point he's all she's got. Sally and Sonic would end up reconciling...and start an affair with each other.  

I'm not kidding, that's what I think what would happen, so you'd have this whole dance around Patch for the two and he would know something is going on, he'd try to get Sonic killed that's for sure. After sometime from either Sonic himself or even Evil Sonic showing up again he would be found out and Antoine would come back. There would be a big fight between Patch and Sonic, with all the damage and lives he's caused I think Sonic would be pushed over the edge...and cripple or kill Patch.

I mean think about it, he's been messing with everyone's lives for let's assume months, harming and killing their friends and family. With the after effects of EVE I think Sonic would be pushed to that limit, we'd have a crowned Queen Sally out of all of it but the damage to everyone's lives has been done. Antoine I'd say would be a bit rougher due to his prolonged itme in Anti Mobius and regarding Bunnie they either wouldn't get back together or wouldn't do so for quite a long time, marriage I'd say would be years away however, what I generally said above I'd say could apply somewhat. After everything that's happened maybe Sally would stay as Queen, knowing her responsibility not because it was her father's wishes but to prevent making the same mistakes he made, she wouldn't mess around after losing her father along with/almost her brother like that. While they wouldn't rush to get married I'd say Sally and Sonic would stay together and that brings me to the biggest change, Sonic. After everything that's happened he'd come to realize he can't mess around after all of this, he might give someone one chance to change their ways but after that all bets are off. This in turn changes how the Freedom Fighters operate as they wouldn't take this crap anymore, change your ways are they are stopping you so you'd never hurt anyone again. That alone changes the rest of the series as a whole, in fact the arcs of Sonic Genesis and Post-Reboot wouldn't even come to past.

Overall, Patch would get found out later, thus leading to Sonic and Freedom Fighters who wouldn't take bull from anyone, I'd like to thank @TheRedStranger as we were talking about this on Skype.  

[ByTor, Prince of Ro’den]

Admin note: I merged two basically identical threads.

[Mike Arcade]

No problem Will, thanks.

Okay guys, anything else to add regarding questions or perhaps new ones? Let's keep on rolling around at the speed of sound. *shot*

[TheRedStranger]

What would happen if there was no incredibly overstretched multiverse or at least clipped it to not include parallel universes? What if we mixed Zonic, Scourge, and all the cheaping  copies of Sonic? How do you think such would affect the story and how would you introduce some of the concepts like Scourge within the context of a singular universe?

[Mike Arcade]

That's a good question, especially since the whole Comic Multiverse thing has been played out since the 50's and doesn't fit Sonic at all, the only reason why that happened in Archie Sonic at all was because of both hack writers and writers who didn't care, once it was established they just rolled with it and never stopped. So with that in mind considering much of the mythos in Archie Sonic before it's reset was folded out with it as a main thing without it the story would be quite different because of that. For one that would wipe out all the Parallel Zones so no Moebius or No Zone thankfully, that would also mean no early stories like the first Robo-Robotnik or the Thousand Sonic and Tails stories. This could also extend to Light Mobius (X Years Later), Dark Mobius (Jani-Ca's World), and Silver's Future but that relies more on Time Travel then anything else. Rules of that in Sonic usually being once something is changed in the past the future is effected (Sonic CD, Sonic 2006 even, and Back to the Future) with no room for Alternate Timelines/Alternate Universes so only one good or bad future at a time here.

Now as for Scourge, well in a way he could be redundant as we have Knuckles, Geoffrey, and Shadow as rivals to Sonic yet the appeal I get from others regarding Scourge is that he's an Arch Enemy and Rival that doesn't seem he could turn face so to speak. That said how would I'd have him in a Multiverse-less Archie Sonic? Well there are a lot of ways we can pull this off, the easiest way would be cloning possibly through GUN as their own Project Shadow or some other 3rd Party. That means they don't necessarily use Sonic's DNA but that could be likely. The next could have him be a Sonic from a Future gone horribly wrong and ended up time displaced in the past with no way back, yet doesn't seem to disappear should he succeed in whatever it was he needed to do, could end up having a major case of an identity crisis with seeing his unworthy, younger self wasting time and not doing what should be done. The 3rd way you can go about things is Scourge being a separate Hedgehog all together, who might or might not be a fan of Sonic and somehow ends up gaining similar abilities through whatever means be that Genetic Engineering or Magic from someone. There is a lot of potential for the character yet all I see from fans and in the comic itself was a Street Punk with delusions of grander making him seem like a bigger threat than he really was, only thing is fans usually end up killing him off usually for their creepy Fiona and Tails shipping.

So with all that in mind, without a Multiverse to deal with the story itself has a much better focus and assures us that what happens in the story matters, Archie Sonic tried to answer that with the main world being the Prime Zone with that Sonic being Sonic Prime but that was such a vague, hand waving answer it didn't matter at all let alone played any major roll in the story. Heck Eggman at that time was from Another Zone yet Zonic for some unknown reason said that a Zone has to have a Sonic and Eggman to remain balanced, it's that kind of after thought of an answer that made the comic such a mess. Also it shows the Zone Cops in a much more darker light as they willingly let Mobius suffer with Eggman while capturing others in their own prison for the sake of the Multiverse. As if those Masked Dinosaurs and Echidnas weren't Hippocrates enough here we have another group like them.

Though that wouldn't explain nor could it really apply to Blaze's World I believe, as much like other D&D Worlds each world is separate yet different so in that context having Mobius and Blaze's World can still happen should a storyteller want it. Although you could just have Blaze's World and stuff be on Mobius so that could solve a problem right there too. It just all depends on how you want the story to go, be that one world or have separate yet different worlds somehow but I would say there has to be a VERY good reason for the latter and most of all answer why it's important for the world that said story takes place in there a now matter so much.

[Mike Arcade]

Here we are and back again! I would like to see everyone answer the last question TheRedStranger posted above here as it's a really interesting one, but I do want to continue on with this topic as well so let's begin again. Since the comic is over there have been a few pencil sketches of how a few issues would have gone with a few new characters in the mix who didn't get any spotlight due to the cancellation, with that in mind here's a question regarding the Post-Reboot comic.

How do you think Archie Sonic would have continued had it not been cancelled?

[Akessel92]

Arise from the realm of lost and forgotten threads! arise! 

 

 To answer Mike: It’s likely they would have completed the genesis origins of the Post-SGW world of the comic and more character driven issues to Sonic Universe. As we saw in the unused content for Antoine and Bunnie in their Universe arcs. 

 

Here’s my question. How would you do the sonic/megaman crossovers differently? 

[Mike Arcade]

15 minutes ago, Akessel92 said:

Arise from the realm of lost and forgotten threads! arise! 

 

 To answer Mike: It’s likely they would have completed the genesis origins of the Post-SGW world of the comic and more character driven issues to Sonic Universe. As we saw in the unused content for Antoine and Bunnie in their Universe arcs. 

 

Here’s my question. How would you do the sonic/megaman crossovers differently? 

Yeah I'll admit my question was a bit broad for it to have a detailed answer, but hey fair enough that's what they would have probably done.

That question is more suited for WWYDD, don't worry I can post it in that topic and answer it there.

[Wulfsbane]

On 11/28/2017 at 2:21 PM, Mike Arcade said:

How do you think Archie Sonic would have continued had it not been cancelled?

Probably another year of Ian's horrible doing-too-much-at-once world building, more open ended Sally/Nicole stuff which has become unpopular sans for a small group of fans, and a bunch of other odd decisions that would probably not make a lot of sense.

 

Honestly after reading the first 6 issues of IDW, while it's still not a good as it can be, I think the breath of fresh air is helping.

[TheRedStranger]

On 8/7/2018 at 11:22 PM, Wulfsbane said:

Ian's horrible doing-too-much-at-once world buildin

I am not too terribly familiar with Archie as a whole, being more a Satam guy. I can’t help but note from what I have read That his works suffer from the classic was Hype-Then-Abandon-Tension-In-Deus/Ex-Machina plot model. It has stretched to the zombot arc. Many are overwealmed and overpowered in daunting odds, but it just gets wiped away in the last issue. Reading his work is like chaining-upwards in a coaster, only to find yourself coasting on a sudden level plane for the rest of the ride.

I will read more, but honestly I am currently not impressed. 

[MoKat]

16 hours ago, TheRedStranger said:

I will read more, but honestly I am currently not impressed. 

I quite getting/reading those comics a long time ago, so that should tell you how unimpressed I am. Well, that and no Freedom Fighters = no interest on my part 😛

 

16 hours ago, TheRedStranger said:

his works suffer from the classic was Hype-Then-Abandon-Tension-In-Deus/Ex-Machina plot model.

True, which is a shame because I know he can do better, because he -has- done better back when he was writing fan fiction. Editorial mandate was part of the problem with his Archie Sonic work, but his writing hasn't improved at IDW - if anything, it had gotten worse.

[TheRedStranger]

7 minutes ago, MoKat said:

True, which is a shame because I know he can do better, because he -has- done better back when he was writing fan fiction. Editorial mandate was part of the problem with his Archie Sonic work, but his writing hasn't improved at IDW - if anything, it had gotten worse.

The greatest limitation Ian deals with is indeed SoJ. Sega of Japan want a mascot, not a character. The movie has put pressure on that like Satam did and still does. Sega's management needs to realize that Sonic is a character, not merely a mascot. That was ironically his strength over Mario, his humanity. Mario is loveable and well...flat in character as an icon as byzantine icon should be in aesthetic. With Sonic's more real edge, comes need for dimension. Sonic should cry, feel pain, and fail. He did in Satam.  That's what makes him a good rebuttal, he's ideally the antimascot. He has an iconic look, but is deeper than a icon. Sega of America gave us a character in the mere lovable image.

[MoKat]

2 minutes ago, TheRedStranger said:

Sega of Japan want a mascot, not a character.

And -that- was the real problem all along >.<

2 minutes ago, TheRedStranger said:

With Sonic's more real edge, comes need for dimension. Sonic should cry, feel pain, and fail. He did in Satam.  

Agreed.

In SatAM, sometimes the bad guy (Robotnik) won; that was part of the series' appeal. Back in the 90's, that was rare; the good guys always won in other shows.

[Mike Arcade]

2 hours ago, TheRedStranger said:

I am not too terribly familiar with Archie as a whole, being more a Satam guy. I can’t help but note from what I have read That his works suffer from the classic was Hype-Then-Abandon-Tension-In-Deus/Ex-Machina plot model. It has stretched to the zombot arc. Many are overwealmed and overpowered in daunting odds, but it just gets wiped away in the last issue. Reading his work is like chaining-upwards in a coaster, only to find yourself coasting on a sudden level plane for the rest of the ride.

I will read more, but honestly I am currently not impressed. 

I've read all of Archie Sonic years ago, and while Ian was overall one of the best and most consistent writer in the comic, that's not saying too much considering the oddities of the comic before he came along. While his Iron Dominion Arc (the one with Monkey Khan) I thought was a pretty good arc, that was one of the more divisive arcs back then. Ever since the Reboot, it's sad to say he's gone through this constant cycle where since then, his story arcs are overly too long and then end at an anti climatic break neck pace. That of course, also applies to IDW Sonic as a whole, despite it's decent length so far. At the very least, with a change in writing staff, I think that will only benefit the new comic. But that is more of a discussion for another topic.

 

9 hours ago, TheRedStranger said:

Sonic should cry, feel pain, and fail. He did in Satam.  That's what makes him a good rebuttal, he's ideally the antimascot

That's what made him a great mascot, because he had actual character. He wasn't any sort of Mickey Mouse or Mario, and while I like those characters...they aren't exactly characters per say. Can you guys tell me what exactly Mickey or Mario's character traits are? At least with Sonic, you had much more with him in his SoA backstory, though I would argue he had much more of a personality during the Adventure Games as well. Now I can see where there could be problems with your Mascot having actual character and maybe an arc, because that means growth and change. For many long running series, sometimes that means having a reboot every decade or so. But that's not always the case (Ratchet & Clank). Or you have different incarnations of the same character (Mega Man), honestly any of those solutions would be fine, but SEGA does not want to commit to any of those options aside from making Classic and Adventure/Modern separate, which makes no sense.