Reworking characters: SEGA version

[ToaArcan]

Here's an idea I had, similar to the Reconstructed stuff. That seems to be more about the stories themselves, but I want to discuss the most important part of the story: The characters.

Let's be honest, Sonic characters aren't the most fantastic out there. I generally see them as characters that have oceans of potential, and most of them are very good ideas, but they're hamstrung by SEGA's practices, and particularly in the modern era, but as I've said on another thread, the troubles really began around Sonic Heroes. That said, maybe you'll want to go back to the beginning to rework it all from there, I don't know.

 

Let's start with the obvious one: How would you handle Sonic himself?

[ToaArcan]

Interesting points, could you elaborate a little further?

[Ishapar]

What about the animation short to Sonic CD?  I think everything about the game Sonic could be summed up with the animation.

[F07E]

2 hours ago, Ishapar said:

What about the animation short to Sonic CD?  I think everything about the game Sonic could be summed up with the animation.

Indeed it could! Though on a semi-related tangent I think it was done by the same studio which did the OVA, which means if it weren't for sonic 4, it could have been like a prequel to the OVA.

[Ishapar]

Could be, but you can't get past the fact SEGA used the animation in their console game, and it pretty gave a good impression of what Sonic is like without the need for words.

[F07E]

I agree completely, it's a shame sega seems to forget how well they presented everyone prior to the dreamcast era. The last games that ever relied on actions to tell a narrative and show character was the advance series.

[TheRedStranger]

I have been around 

3 hours ago, F07E said:

I agree completely, it's a shame sega seems to forget how well they presented everyone prior to the dreamcast era. The last games that ever relied on actions to tell a narrative and show character was the advance series.

Sonic dialogue can be cringe worthy, but I think the silent protagonists is dead in games (eg. Mass Effect, Fable 3, Zelda in BoTW, and Fallout Four). And good riddance; it was getting old (I, the old man of 24 in the room, was there for all of it after all.) Seeing Mario and Star Fox voiced in Super Mario 64 was amazing at he time.As for RPG games, voice actors are not that expensive (many sadly are under paid). There are also a ton that would basically do it for chump change to break in the biz.  Designers can give people more voices in character creation games to find the one you can best relate to. (And they can allow the game to be modded for even more.)

--

 As for Sonic and redesign, the Animation needs to express the narrative as much as the dialogue needs to inform narrative. Without dialogue you are not going to have a deeper context to the stories other than physical actions and reactions. I for one would hate to see Satam for example reduced to Sonic and Robotnik being a bizzare mime act. Sonic CD might have been a fun game in the 90's, but Satam was doing the animation much better at the same time. It's proof of concept of what the video games could have been if SoJ could get beyond its sociocentrism when it came to SoA. Imagine what a Sonic CD like game could have been if you such animations AND had Ben Hurst and Len Janson on board. 

 PrinceBytor has an interesting perspective on CD I would like him to share to back me up on this.

[F07E]

2 hours ago, TheRedStranger said:

I have been around 

Sonic dialogue can be cringe worthy, but I think the silent protagonists is dead in games (eg. Mass Effect, Fable 3, Zelda in BoTW, and Fallout Four). And good riddance; it was getting old (I, the old man of 24 in the room, was there for all of it after all.) Seeing Mario and Star Fox voiced in Super Mario 64 was amazing at he time.As for RPG games, voice actors are not that expensive (many sadly are under paid). There are also a ton that would basically do it for chump change to break in the biz.  Designers can give people more voices in character creation games to find the one you can best relate to. (And they can allow the game to be modded for even more.)

--

 As for Sonic and redesign, the Animation needs to express the narrative as much as the dialogue needs to inform narrative. Without dialogue you are not going to have a deeper context to the stories other than physical actions and reactions. I for one would hate to see Satam for example reduced to Sonic and Robotnik being a bizzare mime act. Sonic CD might have been a fun game in the 90's, but Satam was doing the animation much better at the same time. It's proof of concept of what the video games could have been if SoJ could get beyond its sociocentrism when it came to SoA. Imagine what a Sonic CD like game could have been if you such animations AND had Ben Hurst and Len Janson on board. 

 PrinceBytor has an interesting perspective on CD I would like him to share to back me up on this.

Well I feel like I didn't get my perspective across properly, my bad. I meant that the cutscenes in cd (including the endings) had sonic be expressive in the right ways, where we can get a bead on just how it is he would act. Namely on how he isn't initially seeming to look for trouble, finds robotnik doing dasterdly things, and jumps headfirst into trouble saving the day just cause it's an adventure, a challenge, the right thing to do. I didn't mean to give the impression that I think sonic should never talk, and to say that it should only be 'sonic vs eggman', as your right in that it kills any deeper narrative, I just used a catch-all term to refer to everything from the pre-dreamcast era which might not have been the best idea.

As for dialogue in games I agree to an extent, as there's nothing worse than a poorly written silent protagonist, one great example being the rookie from halo 3: ODST, who was never engaging enough to make the player care about him, But it doesn't neseccarily mean that silent protagonists are dead, as DOOM '16 showed that it still works very well. It's completely situational as to whether or not it will work or not. I apologize for this next bit as I need to vent about this, but fallout 4 is a great example of a game that should have never had a speaking protagonist, It only hindered the narrative and made every bit of choice reduced to yes, no, sarcasm, and charisma, and the ending meant squat as it was always the same monologue regardless of player action or choice. It exemplifies a speaking protagonist done poorly, which is why I found it one of the most dissapointing games of 2015.

[Ishapar]

I'm siding with F07E on this one. 

When I mentioned the animation sequences of Sonic CD, I was emphasizing how Sega was able to portray all the qualities of the game Sonic without needing to spell it with words.  The scenery, the plot, the character's facial expressions, the music:  everything in the animations showed us the spiky hedgehog with the attitude.  We got to see Sonic's want for speed and adventure, his parkour and spin manuevers, his response to seeing Robotnik's newest scheme, his fun prankish side in dealing with the badniks, and his determined attitude to not quit.  All those things were captured in those animations, and I believed those animations are a good source to define Sonic's character and abilities.

Having an attitude, Sonic does need to talk.  And I believe Sonic Satam probably gives him the best personality outside of the Genesis games.  You must remember, however, that any kid from the 90's was introduced to Sonic by his games on the Sega Genesis (just about every other kid had one of those in the US), and it was the Sonic from the original Genesis games that would be imprinted on the majority of the kid's lives (hence the strong movement for Classic Sonic).  Sonic Cd was able to show off the newer technology of the Sega CD with the animation scene and the new "Sonic Boom" theme song while still presenting the same Sonic every Genesis player knew about.

As a fan of the original games, I wasn't used to Sonic speaking until I came across Sonic X and the modern games.  As I grew older, I recognized a gap between the Sonic I grew up loving and how he was being presented in the newer media.  When I came across the old Archie comics, I was introduced to a side of Sonic that was placed alongside his Genesis character...and it worked better for me than what I was getting from the newer media.  From the old Archie comics I eventually came across Sonic Satam, and I strongly side that this portrayal of Sonic is about as close as I can see the Genesis Sonic behaving if he talked and had companions to communicate with.  I want Sonic to talk, but only if it fits with the Sonic that was originally portrayed from the Genesis games.  Silent heroes like Mario and Link are okay for their franchise, but we're talking about Sonic: the speedy hedgehog whose got an attitude!  Just his idle animation in Sonic 1 was enough to let you know that Sonic was no goodie tooshie boy scout that obeyed robotically; he'll give you the foot tapping if you make him wait and, as shown in Sonic CD, even a game over!  That's attitude!

[WarTraveller]

Time to revive this topic; if Sonic has now been reworked, what about his "rival", Shadow?

Now that Shadow's story is basically over and done with, what would you do with Shadow?

[Ishapar]

Leave him alone, or work more with his character development.  He's a creature created to be the ultimate lifeform with no relations and no purpose other than being used:  that's got to tax on a guy.

[WarTraveller]

On 10/10/2017 at 12:22 AM, Ishapar said:

Leave him alone, or work more with his character development.  He's a creature created to be the ultimate lifeform with no relations and no purpose other than being used:  that's got to tax on a guy.

Hmm, interesting. That's something that SEGA's never actually managed to do anything with. Maybe because they're allergic to storytelling.

Next question, though the previous one is still open;

Okay, what about Silver? The character that got the short end of the stick when it comes to...everything. How would you handle Silver?

[Ishapar]

The guy has teleknosis powers and doesn't have the same speed as Sonic.  This alone should show that Silver should not just be considered a Sonic clone/rival as Shadow is.  The problem with Silver from the 06 game is that he was doing all in his power to prevent the Iblis trigger from happening to prevent the bad future.  So, if that future has been thwarted, what is left?  What is his role in the future?  Why was he and Blaze destined to fight Iblis?  How did he and Blaze get his powers?

[WarTraveller]

What do you think is wrong with Infinite from Sonic Forces, and how would you fix him?

[Wulfsbane]

5 hours ago, WarTraveller said:

What do you think is wrong with Infinite from Sonic Forces, and how would you fix him?

 

I touch upon this in the review. Coming soon