Archie Sonic Reconstructed

[Wulfsbane]

Like SatAM Reconstructed, I pose the same idea but with the Archie Comics

 

You ask a question about a plot point, issue, or anything that left you confused or nit-picking from the Archie Comic series. Then, everyone else tries to come up with an interesting, exciting, and intelligent answer for it. It's not a game about criticizing - it's all about improving.

 

Here's the first question: How come when Mobians were Roboticized they were able to move, however, when the same process happened to an Overlander they became paralyzed. What is a possible reason for this?

[ByTor, Prince of Ro’den]

I believe that it was more along that the humans had free will and could choose to me immobile. And when Snively and Robotnik were roboticized themselves were actually able to move; at least that's how I remember it; it's been a while since I read the comic.

[Mike Arcade]

I believe there is literally NO explanation on why they don't move, though I do have a theory.

Considering at that point in time Eggman was not only a Robot, but could also Roboticize with a touch, perhaps he roboticized them in a way so that they don't move be default, it's only when he gives them orders they could move.

[ToaArcan]

If I recall correctly, it was a mental thing: The roboticization process only worked perfectly if they really wanted it for some reason. Why this happened was never explained, it was just stated to be a fact. 

It appears to be a sort of psychosomatic problem, I suppose. But whatever it is, the exact details are a bit... weird.

[TheRedStranger]

2 hours ago, ToaArcan said:

If I recall correctly, it was a mental thing: The roboticization process only worked perfectly if they really wanted it for some reason. Why this happened was never explained, it was just stated to be a fact. 

It appears to be a sort of psychosomatic problem, I suppose. But whatever it is, the exact details are a bit... weird.

If you had to make sense of it; how would you all go about doing just that as writers given what we have story wise?

[F07E]

I'd assume it was due to how, as well as who, the roboticizer was designed, namely for mobian's. by putting an overlander in it, who has a mostly different physiology and genetic code, it causes their programming to immobilize them in order to prevent catastrophic damage to key components, regardless of the fact they may be the perfect picture of an overlander robian (roverlander?).

[Wulfsbane]

But how would the method be different?

[ToaArcan]

The machines might not be the same. For one thing, the one in Robotnik's body would be a lot smaller.

[TheRedStranger]

So overall let's try to give the concept some clear enumerated rules, gleaning from what we see of the concept in action. After all to make it relevant to the story, there has to be some consistency.

[ToaArcan]

Alright, here's what we know:

1) Roboticization was established as petrifying Overlanders/humans.

2) This did not happen to Robo-Robotnik, making this a clear case of retroactive continuity.

3) Snively was able to survive the transformation because he "Wanted it".

4) Our source on the effects is Robo-Robotnik himself, who is not a reliable source.

 

So, from this, we could glean that Eggman had control over whether they were petrified or not, and simply chose to keep Snively alive. However, if we assume that it is realit doesn't make a lot of sense, which I suppose if why we're even talking about it.

[TheRedStranger]

Does anyone else have any pressing questions?

[Wulfsbane]

Why did Rosemary Prower act the way she did, as in being uninterested in raising Tails?

[ToaArcan]

Bad writing Ian rewriting her personality to tell his bad story

If we're going to try and marry her portrayal under Bollers with her derailment under Ian, it's quite simple: There was a disconnect. Rosemary would've been a much better mother if she'd been around during his formative years. Unfortunately, by the time she's around, Tails is already eleven years old, and in many ways, has fully matured (Because nobody except the DIC writers could actually make him act like a kid). She feels that she doesn't really know him, and the feeling is probably mutual. She may also not feel completely okay with who he grew up to be, and feels that he seems more like Sonic and Sally's child than her own.

[Wulfsbane]

9 hours ago, ToaArcan said:

Bad writing Ian rewriting her personality to tell his bad story

If we're going to try and marry her portrayal under Bollers with her derailment under Ian, it's quite simple: There was a disconnect. Rosemary would've been a much better mother if she'd been around during his formative years. Unfortunately, by the time she's around, Tails is already eleven years old, and in many ways, has fully matured (Because nobody except the DIC writers could actually make him act like a kid). She feels that she doesn't really know him, and the feeling is probably mutual. She may also not feel completely okay with who he grew up to be, and feels that he seems more like Sonic and Sally's child than her own.

So then why didnt she at least attempt to get to know him? Armedeaus at least made the attempt and partially succeeded in a way. Even if she wasnt okay with who he grew up to be, she didnt show any love for her own kid.

 

Anyone else wanna weigh in?

[ToaArcan]

I would wager that they did have some connection- Tails goes to her after Fiona goes crazy in 172, rather than Sally or one of the other FF. However, because this is Ian "Blaze can't carry a story" Flynn, he never showed it because it didn't have enough explosions or punching.

[Akessel92]

On July 17, 2016 at 8:09 PM, ToaArcan said:

I would wager that they did have some connection- Tails goes to her after Fiona goes crazy in 172, rather than Sally or one of the other FF. However, because this is Ian "Blaze can't carry a story" Flynn, he never showed it because it didn't have enough explosions or punching.

Oh there you go bringing the whole "blaze can't carry a story" line again! There are many facets regarding blaze and so forth but that's not what's being discussed. 

I think she did show concerns about him in the secret freedom fighter arc but again my memory is fuzzy. Also I don't see her being a part of acorn council as a character derailment but as something that she needed for her character. Which judging by her reasoning of joining the acorn council was that she wanted to make a better for her son. When she and Amadeus were with the Bem, they saw an advanced society that had toppled its own monarchy and prospered greatly except when their society was caught in the middle of a war between the Xorda and the black arms. They figured they would bring a good future for mobians who were tired of the mistakes made by the acorns whom had either been influenced by a cosmic golden pool of pee, a wizard and an evil scientist. 

[ToaArcan]

TO be fair, it was a prospering society of total jerks that decided they knew best for everyone else in the galaxy, and in doing so, accidentally caused at least one complete extinction of an alien race. THey also kept her and her husband imprisoned for eleven years for no reason. While the Bem were thriving, they were completely amoral.

While it might not have been derailment for her to join the council, or suggest its formation, she wasn't qualified to rule a people that she had been apart from for over a decade. 

 

Also that cosmic golden pool of pee was a supposedly-omniscient god. And Rosemary helped make that same wizard the king just because Geoffrey stole the crown from Elias and some people cheered. I... don't think we're supposed to agree with her, or sympathize with her. We're supposed to understand why she does what she does, and admit that she can have a point, but ultimately, she's a hindrance to the protagonists and she doesn't know what she's talking about most of the time.

[Mike Arcade]

Why was Rosemary how she is in Archie Sonic? That is a very good question, well let's see from what we know of her she and her husband were both captured and kept on an alien world for over a decade, with no apparent attempt at escape. They were inspired by The Bem's Council to use their ideas once they got back to Mobius, if they got back to Mobius though if Sonic never ran into them I'm sure they would have died there.

Afterwards they pulled their own coup, now granted considering the Acorn Kingdom's track record it's no surprise someone had enough distaste for them to pull this off, HOWEVER what doesn't justify this is they pulled this on a King who just started out and then let a Mad Wizard and his Puppet take over. The Bem amoral as they are, are basically the end result of what both The Acorn Kingdom and Echidna Society would be if they were left unopposed if you ask me. Thing is though Rosemary and Amadeus fail to see the irony in putting in a system that is just as easily corruptible as very kingdom they brought down, and ended up as such. Rosemary is more of the brains in the operation if you ask me, what we are given is a person who tries to make their home into something they want it to be not only for them, but for her son who she never got to raise, there are a number of factors when it comes to her really.

Though that's mostly speculation, what we got is someone who is suppose to be an antagonist to our heroes, as in how these previous factions actually are rather then how they were framed by Penders and Bollers in the past. So both Rosemary and Council of Acorns are essentially villains from inside the system that the heroes work for, much like how both Acorn Kingdom and Echidna Society actually came off in the past issues.

As for the Source of All, they had no apparent clue of it, because if they did they would have used it against The Acorns had they known, that and it was meant to be a secret originally anyway. In the end, sadly we didn't get to see any actual conflict with the Freedom Fighters herself or Sally, which would have been great to have and a huge missed opportunity. Rosemary wanted to make a change for Family and get her Son back, but in the end is no better then those who ruled over her, others, or conquered Mobius.

[ToaArcan]

At first I wanted to argue that the Council weren't exactly villains, but then I looked at the lineup:

Rotor: Did the right thing every time but always got outvoted.

Chuck: Basically lost his spine and just went along with the rest of the council, and maybe went behind their backs to do the opposite, but didn't have the guts to publicly oppose them.

Dylan: Did nothing and agreed with the others.

Penelope: DId nothing and agreed with the others.

Rosemary: Seemed to be trying to screw the FF over for some reason, probably jealous that Nature vs. Nuture went the way of the latter and Tails is much more SOnic and Sally's child than he is her's.

Hamlin: Was openly trying to screw Sally over because she snubbed him from being a real FF.

 

Yeah, they're pretty much a problem for the FF that can't be solved by fighting.

[Akessel92]

On July 23, 2016 at 6:12 AM, ToaArcan said:

At first I wanted to argue that the Council weren't exactly villains, but then I looked at the lineup:

Rotor: Did the right thing every time but always got outvoted.

Chuck: Basically lost his spine and just went along with the rest of the council, and maybe went behind their backs to do the opposite, but didn't have the guts to publicly oppose them.

Dylan: Did nothing and agreed with the others.

Penelope: DId nothing and agreed with the others.

Rosemary: Seemed to be trying to screw the FF over for some reason, probably jealous that Nature vs. Nuture went the way of the latter and Tails is much more SOnic and Sally's child than he is her's.

Hamlin: Was openly trying to screw Sally over because she snubbed him from being a real FF.

 

Yeah, they're pretty much a problem for the FF that can't be solved by fighting.

I reread those issues regarding the council and rosemary. She wasn't trying to screw them over nor was she jealous of how tails turned out. She was only against the freedom fighters when they stepped out of line against the councils wishes like say during bold new Moebius, or the aftermath of the iron dominion. I think she was more for the people's instrument in government and also sharing their sentiments against the acorns. Though she allowed Naugus to have his case of being King heard due to a constitutional loophole, she did stand against Naugus whenever he tried overstep. Though she was apart of the unanimous vote to get Nicole exiled, however she would go along with Isabella mongoose's appointment of being a council member as well as the proposal to put Nicole back. Her intent wasn't out of malice but out of wanting accountability when the ffs have had a history of infiltration by "reformed" villains or doppelgängers. 

[F07E]

I think the argument being raised on both sides is that rosemary was not adept at wartime politics, she snubbed the FF from a civilian standpoint rather than military one while also possibly being compromised on a personal level. Alongside an inexperienced council who were either incompetent or pursuing their own agendas, a lack of cohesion between the council members, and a system which was shown to have failed when the worst came to pass, rosemary was a villain purely in the sense that she actually hindered and outright de-stabilized the kingdom of acorn by instigating a new unstable method of governance during one of the longest drawn conflicts in its history. Whether or not it was intentional is where the more interesting ideas come from.

[ToaArcan]

Akessel raises a good point, but I think F07E knocks it out of the park in how they come across. A villain doesn't always do what they do out of malice. A great many villains do what they do for "the greater good (The greater good)" and are ultimately in the right, but end up opposing the heroes and causing misery because of it. The problem is that it was handled without a lot of nuance. Hamlin champions the cause to have Sally court-martialed, and in the very same issue was confirmed to be pursuing his own agenda. Now, if this had been kept off the table for a little while, until the characters began to question just why it was that it was always Hamlin who started things against them, then it would've been interesting, but that's not what we got. 

There was also the problem that the Council were very much focused on the opinions of the public, rather than the safety of the public. If the people of Mobotropolis wanted something intensely stupid (Like, say, Naugus as king, or Nicole to be exiled), then the Council give it to them. As a result of this, there was no-one monitoring the city's systems, because none of them thought about who would actually do Nicole's job once she was gone, and Eggman was able to destroy the city's shield generator with an infiltration bot, and the city was nearly destroyed twice over, with Naugus completely failing to deliver on all of his promises to keep it safe.

Also, note that it's "The people of Mobotropolis". Not the Acorn Republic. The council had a huge habit of making decisions that would affect the whole nation based entirely on the desires of the populace of it's capital city. Nobody outside of Mobotropolis' border supported Naugus, but he was still given power over the whole nation. 

Despite them supposedly all being fairly smart, all that was ever needed to convince them to do something stupid or antagonistic was say "But the people like it!" and suddenly everyone except Rotor and Elias was applauding the idea. The only people who actually had to justify themselves were the Freedom Fighters, whom the council trusted less than anyone else.

And hey, it's not like they ever paid attention to due process. A crowd cheered when Geoffrey put the crown on Naugus' head? I guess he's king now, with no actual explanations for why he'd be a good king. The people want Nicole out? Let's not give anyone a chance to explain why she's needed, just exile her straight away. 

 

The Naugus thing really is a massive hole in the council's credibility. There are so many things wrong with his accession that it forms the single greatest display of incompetence by any leadership in the comic. And this is the same universe where Maximillian Acorn and Eggman are/were world leaders. 

 

1) Naugus is an escaped convict who has not completed his sentence. He is thus a criminal, and should've immediately been arrested.

2) Naugus's claim to the throne is highly dubious for a variety of reasons:

-A) Nobody saw Max's promise.

-B) Max's sanity is highly debatable.

-C) It was strongly implied that he had coerced Max.

-D) Naugus has mind control powers, and thus could've brainwashed Max. However, since he doesn't try to use them on the council until the Secret Freedom arc, this point does not absolve the Council of their stupidity. "Naugus hypnotized them" isn't a valid explanation.

-E) A monarch may update the line of succession multiple times, something that Max clearly did- He made Elias the heir when he found out he was still alive, made Sally the heir again when Elias ran away, named Antoine his successor by way of marriage to Sally in the 150s, and then Elias took the throne after that, with Sally being the heir because Alexis is his stepchild, not by blood. Naugus' claim was outdated from the moment Max first changed it.

-F) All of the above is barely relevant because Max promised him the throne of the Kingdom of Acorn, a nation which was dissolved in issue 179 and replaced by the Republic of Acorn, which uses an entirely different system of government.

-G) The Republic's genesis was the Prowers' desire to avoid the mistakes of Maximillian, one of which was trusting Naugus. The council proceeded to make Naugus king.

3) The Sword of Light burns him when he touches it. This is an enormous indicator that he's evil.

4) He has tried to kill everyone in the room except Elias and Rosemary at least once.

5) His having mind control powers and the people of the city suddenly loving him would've been a huge red flag for anyone capable of joined-up thinking. However, this was an Ian Flynn story, so protagonists are only capable of that when the plot allows it.

 

[Mike Arcade]

I'm really liking how this topic is going, so many different interpretations, I'm lovin it!
Unless Flynn finally gets around to posting the rest of Lost Hedgehog Tales we'll never know what the intentions of these characters were, all we can do is speculate then. Speaking of which I got a good one right here.

What was the intention of The Ancient Walkers and their endgame?

See I ask this because they WERE the ones that showed Locke the vision of Knuckles in 20YL which got him to experiment on him in the first place, killed two morally ambiguous magic users while recruiting the 3rd one (Merlin Prower), had a former Knight of the Acorn Kingdom (Sir Connery) kill them, and called Tails The Chosen One. Considering their influence on The Echidnas with Aurora on their side and everything seemingly random in their actions other then taking down Mogul, just what was their deal?

[ToaArcan]

I don't think you're going to get many responses on that one, Mike.

[Mike Arcade]

Ohh....okay then. ._.

Well the question is up there if anyone wants to take a crack at it, I just thought it would be very interesting to point out as they are never mentioned in the fandom and yet in Archie Sonic are behind the scenes on a lot of things. If anyone wants to continue with the previous question that's fine too, if anyone else has a question themselves that can be reconstructed then by all means go ahead.

[F07E]

I've got one: how were cream, the chao, and her mother able to avoid capture from robotnik, and why is it they appear to lack the same hostility toward the kingdom typical of most southerners? 

[Mike Arcade]

Whose to say she's a Southerner, after all you have Li-Moon who's basically Chinese and a Fox and yet we aren't calling Fiona or Tails Chinese, it seems like they aren't part of the same lineage as Bunnie, granted in the 1st Genesis Wave Cream was Bunnie's Cousin but that doesn't really apply in the Pre-Reboot Timeline nor was it ever confirmed.

Let's see, by the time of the first issue of Archie Sonic which was 2 years prior in canon to the Super Genesis Wave happening when say Sonic was 15 Cream was 4 years old at that time. When Sonic and Co. were younger during those Sonic Kids Stories Vanilla wasn't even pregnant during that time so the question would be more like how Vanilla managed to not only survive, but find someone that ended up with her pregnant with Cream, THEN find that Mansion that housed all those Chao.

I'd say that she was a former Freedom Fighter but she has no apparent incline or a desire to fight, so she could have been a civilian who ended up living with a group of Freedom Fighters, ended up with one of them, then had to escape and at some point ended up giving birth to Cream. With the father or not they end up either being sent to or discovering the Chao Garden and hide out there until Amy finds them.

[F07E]

12 hours ago, Mike Arcade said:

Whose to say she's a Southerner, after all you have Li-Moon who's basically Chinese and a Fox and yet we aren't calling Fiona or Tails Chinese, it seems like they aren't part of the same lineage as Bunnie, granted in the 1st Genesis Wave Cream was Bunnie's Cousin but that doesn't really apply in the Pre-Reboot Timeline nor was it ever confirmed. 

That was more or less because it seemed as though the more I looked into it the more I was seeing people state the estate was located somewhere in the southern baronies.

[Mike Arcade]

Man it's been awhile since we got a good Reconstruction here, and with Stranger's proposed question we are proud to bring this one back in! That being said here's one that'll test you guys on what you believe and make sense off, a very existential one that's been into question lately.

How does the multiverse work and what are its existential implications in the Archie lore?

[Mike Arcade]

That last question was so broad that it put this topic in suspended animation for nearly 2 years.

Well in any case I'm gonna bring this back, and I got a pretty good question for this. So we have Silver right? As in our time traveling psychic Hedgehog from the future, he has a Time Stone to travel back in time and all that to prevent a horrible future, apparently caused by one of the Freedom Fighters turning Heel.

Why didn't Silver go further back in time to the point of the first few issues of Archie Sonic?

Think of this kinda like how Star Trek (2009) did things a bit and you'll see what I mean, why didn't he go back that far?

[WarTraveller]

On 10/2/2018 at 6:48 AM, Mike Arcade said:

Why didn't Silver go further back in time to the point of the first few issues of Archie Sonic?

That depends on wherever or not he knows exactly what caused the events that led to his future. If he had a hard time tracking them down at the time they happen, why would he go even further back to an extent where any number of possabilities lead to the one event that leads to his future? He could mess up and change the wrong thing and then screw things up even further. The so-called Butterfly Effect.

Alongside that, the 16 million cosmic rectons that happen in the comic's history very much means that whatever beginning the comics had when it started, it sure as hell isn't that anymore. Who knows what further changes have been made (regardless of wheverever or not it follows the game "story" closer, as the Shattered World saga shows even then it didn't happen in the order it did for us).

[Mike Arcade]

On 10/6/2018 at 6:08 PM, WarTraveller said:

That depends on wherever or not he knows exactly what caused the events that led to his future. If he had a hard time tracking them down at the time they happen, why would he go even further back to an extent where any number of possabilities lead to the one event that leads to his future? He could mess up and change the wrong thing and then screw things up even further. The so-called Butterfly Effect.

Alongside that, the 16 million cosmic rectons that happen in the comic's history very much means that whatever beginning the comics had when it started, it sure as hell isn't that anymore. Who knows what further changes have been made (regardless of wheverever or not it follows the game "story" closer, as the Shattered World saga shows even then it didn't happen in the order it did for us).

True, but I mean if the future was gonna be messed up regardless wouldn't you want to go back far enough to at least up the chances of preventing it in the first place? I know that sounds incredibly reckless, and it is. However regarding what future Silver lived in, it's not like he would have much holding him back from going far back enough in time to ensure it would be better. Then again I remember that his teacher was a descendant of Knuckles alongside Mammoth Mogol, the latter may have had some sort of reasoning for Silver to not go too far back enough in order to prevent his past self from returning I suppose.

Regarding that case I'm just talking about the original timeline before the SGW, not the canon after it. You know kind of like Mortal Kombat 9 and how it handled it's reboot.